Karen & Stu: The Inside Story

They’ve been working together for 25 years on MR, and five years before that on Accessories magazine. Here, they try to pinpoint what makes it work.

Karen: Should we start by acknowledging that we’re not married to each other, nor are we owners of MR magazine? I’m not sure we even liked each other all that much when we first started out working on Accessories.

Stu: Yes, but we still had a lot in common. Your oldest friend is my neighbor and I used to hang out in your husband Terry’s neighborhood when we were kids. Besides that, it’s almost karmic that we both had fathers in the menswear business.

Karen: Yes, it is. My dad spent the first 35 years of his career at Macy’s (he started there in 1937 marking pricetags before he served in WWII; he ended up senior VP of men’s and boys), so I spent almost every summer from high school through college either working on the selling floor or doing clerical work in the buying office. I can’t say I loved it (I remember endless days in June and July trying to sell fur-lined leather gloves), but I somehow inherited my dad’s ability to connect with people, which is simply a function of being truly interested in them. I wish I’d inherited his style: as you know, fashion is not my area of expertise.

Stu: Nor is it mine! I’m a “tweener,” caught between looking my age and dressing how old I think I am. I stay in reasonably good shape, so I’ve enjoyed the move to slim-fit up to the point where it interferes with comfort. My worst purchases have come on business trips with you, Karen. You always think I look great in things that I never like once I get home.

Karen: I keep trying to update your image. And I do remember a white linen sportcoat that I encouraged you to buy but never saw you wear. But let’s get back to fathers: talk a little about yours.

Stu: My dad was a men’s retailer and I think I disappointed him by not going into his business. He was a great salesman and spoke seven languages. He sold jeans to sailors on the merchant ships on the New York waterfront.

Karen: How did you end up in publishing?

Stu: My first job set the course. I sold the Salesman’s Guide directories to manufacturers in the garment district while still in college in NYC. I used the name Sy Stuart because the owners thought the name Stu Nifoussi was tough to spell and didn’t sound Jewish enough. I’ve spent most of my career in magazines, learning several businesses along the way including hair care, gourmet food, housewares, drug stores and women’s accessories. But once I got into menswear, I knew I was home again.

Karen: Any mentors?

Stu: Before I came to BJI, I was blessed with a few really bad bosses who taught me so much about how not to treat salespeople and other employees. What I learned from them has helped me to manage others. I learned that the best employees are self-motivated and appreciate the ability to make decisions and take responsibility for them. I have tried to manage in that way, and have appreciated the fact that I’ve been allowed to run MR like my own business.

I was part of a really strong sales team in the late-1970s where I learned that there are a lot of pathways to success, all of which include hard work, honesty, hearing what people are telling you and paying attention to the details. My manager at that job gave me possibly the most valuable advice of my sales career. He said, “I don’t like surprises. Tell me what’s happening, especially if it’s bad, and we can deal with it.”

What about you Karen? In addition to your dad, who were your mentors?

Karen: Like you, I learned a lot from a bad boss: the buyer I worked for on the executive training program at Bloomingdale’s. She was an angry, bitter, sarcastic person who showed me everything I didn’t want to be as a manager.

Lewis Kaplan, publisher of Clothes Magazine/Retail Week and my first boss in publishing, was an amazing mentor. He was brilliant and crazy and courageous and believed in total separation of sales and editorial. He taught me to take strong stands on key issues and always write the truth, regardless of who might be insulted. When I once wrote a feature strongly suggesting that retailers shift that season’s open-to-buy from dresses to sportswear, listing all the reasons why, he was totally proud of me, despite the fact that Leslie Fay (a major dress manufacturer at the time) was our back cover advertiser. Needless to say, Leslie Fay dropped their advertising.

As for industry mentors: I learn from all of our readers, but I must single out Mortimer Levitt, Cliff Grodd, Mike Gould and the Mitchell family.

Stu: Haven’t you learned anything from me?

Karen: Of course I have! I’ve learned that every mistake/problem/
screw-up brings an opportunity to strengthen the relationship. And you’ve taught me to really listen, something I’m not so great at. (Were you to replay my interviews on tape, you’d notice that at least 40 minutes of every hour is me talking.) You’ve also taught me a way of selling that I didn’t know existed: you somehow manage to help vendors with their problems so that they actually want to support the magazine. It’s a real give and take, which I don’t think is the norm.

Stu: It’s what I love best about my job, and also the challenge. Early on, the hardest part for me was being tough enough. I wanted everyone to like me. Eventually, I realized that my job was to get the most for my company, and the person I was selling had the same job for his. In that context, I learned to be strong and fight for what I thought was right, but without disparaging the other guy or losing respect for him. Larry Hymes will tell you that many years ago, when he was running The Exclusive show, he switched advertising to DNR because he thought it was fair to “share the wealth” even though we at MR had helped them get started. He reminds me frequently that, when he couldn’t understand why I was upset, I yelled at him: “Larry, you’re taking food out of the mouths of my children!” That might have been a little over the top.

But enough about my strengths as a salesman; what do you consider your strengths as an editor?

Karen: I have far more weaknesses than strengths: I don’t do technology, I’m not a great detail person, I’m certainly not a product person. In fact, the first time I met her, DNR writer Clara Hancox (a wonderful mentor and friend) yelled at me for walking into a clothing showroom and interviewing the president of the company without even looking at the product. I’m still more interested in merchandising and marketing than I am in fashion.

I think my main talent is an ability to get people to open up and tell me more than they intended to. For example, years ago when I interviewed Audrey Talbott of Robert Talbott at their headquarters in Carmel, we sat for hours in her beautiful outdoor garden, chatting about business and about life. When the interview appeared in the magazine, I heard (through the grapevine) that she was terribly upset that I’d written about her personal life. We were sitting in that garden with the tape recorder in front of us: she’d never asked for anything to be off the record. But since then, I’m much more sensitive to people’s privacy, often leaving out the best parts of the interview just to be safe. Fortunately, Mrs. T got such great feedback from the article that she ultimately forgave me and we became great friends. And it’s these kinds of friendships that are my greatest joy.

What about for you Stu: what events standout in your mind?

Stu: There’ve been so many great MR moments. But the funny thing is that each one brings its own anxieties. For instance, when we had our largest issue ever, back in 2000 with more than 300 pages, I couldn’t stop worrying about how I would top that the following year!

Editorially, we’ve done so many things that were great fun. Our underwear model contest was my favorite. We asked readers to pose in their underwear, send us photos, and we picked the winners. When we notified the retailer who won, the female store owner said “Oh, that’s not one of our employees, he’s our UPS man!” That generated lots of comments about late-night deliveries and why she had a half-naked photo of the UPS guy in the first place… (We decided to select a different winner.)

Starting the Uptown/Downtown awards was a terrific move for us. It strengthened the relationships we had with so many great retailers and those endure to this day.
But enough about what we did right; let’s talk about our mistakes.

Karen: You mean like misspelling Marshall Field, our 2003 Retailer of the Year, on the cover of the magazine?

As for interviews, my biggest fiasco might have been my Ed Koch interview for Accessories back when Koch was mayor of New York City. On the train into the city, I had read an article in The New York Times on how much money affluent parents were spending on their kids’ birthday parties. So my first question to Koch was: “What kind of city is this where parents spend thousands of dollars on kids’ birthday parties while there are long lines at the soup kitchens?” And he replied, “You don’t like it? Move to Russia.” It was downhill from there. When the interview was over, I asked him to sign a program from my son Michael’s grade school play in which he played the role of Mayor Koch. Koch beamed from ear to ear and wrote the most endearing paragraph to Michael that I have saved to this day. Lesson learned: start interviews with positive stuff and save tough questions till the end.

Stu: What’s the best advice you ever got from someone in the industry?

Karen: It was from Gene Silverberg at Bigsby & Kruthers, a now defunct but once wonderful menswear store in Chicago. His advice was to hire happy people: if they’re not happy in their personal life, nothing you can do for them at work will make them happy.

Stu: An obvious question: what do you love most about our industry?

Karen: It sounds so trite to say “the people,” but for me (and I know for you too), that’s really what it’s all about. At my dad’s funeral a few years back, and then tragically at the memorial service for my daughter a year ago, when I looked up and saw the faces of so many industry friends, it truly touched my heart. (As I told the owners of Business Journals at this year’s holiday party, “I’ve loved this job so much, I would have done it for free.” “Now you tell us,” was Mac Brighton’s reply.)

Stu: Any regrets?

Karen: That I’ve not yet gotten to know everyone in the business, that there are still showrooms I’ve missed and wonderful stores across the country I’ve not yet visited and really smart (and nice) merchants I’ve yet to have a drink with. But I’m not retiring yet, so my number one priority is to spend more time with more of them.

A question for you Stu: what are your hopes and fears about the future of the men’s business?

Stu: My hope is that young entrepreneurs will find a way to bring more excitement into the business. We’re certainly seeing new brick-and-mortar stores in places like Brooklyn and L.A. where young retailers, with different business models, are opening shops as proving grounds or real world laboratories for their online concepts.

I often say that the era of the great salesperson is ending, resulting in a future that will be much more data driven. In that world, success will be measured by people who move money rather than merchandise. I fear that the business will be less fun without people like the colorful characters we have profiled in this issue.

Karen: Any final thoughts?

Stu: It took me several frustrating years to become a mediocre golfer. However, what I’ve learned from that experience is that, just like everything else in life, it goes better when you relax and take it slow. So that’s my current mantra: It’s increasingly clear that things will be okay, even if I miss the early train or sell one less ad.